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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.12 03:40:00 -
[1]
A Vagabond fitting 2 gyros that lets it's DPS be almost as good as other HACs (taking tracking and falloff into account) will only go about 4km/s with all skills at level 4/5, and even with the damage mods its DPS isn't huge.
The faster non-gyro Vaga will go a good deal faster but have significantly worse DPS and incapable of breaking a proper T2 tank on ships equal to it or above, and some lesser.
THREE of the 10km/s+ 'uber'-DPS (hah) Vagas the whiners keep referring to cost as much as it is to buy and officer fit a mothership.
Guess what other ships are hard to kill? Any ship piloted by someone who knows what they're doing and has proper intel on their surroundings. Hell, if you say you're so plagued by vagas, try using your scanner or fit a WCS. They're available for people who are too stupid to figure out how to PvP outside of EFT.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.12 06:32:00 -
[2]
The option to chose damage types does not mean you always should, using anything other than Barrage M means going within 13km (overloaded web range) or missing forever. Furthermore, almost a quarter of the Vaga's DPS comes from it's 5 light drones which are subject to being destroyed.
Could you also point out how you're figuring out DPS? Zealot does a decent amount more DPS than the Vagabond at all ranges and is just under after drones factored in.
All the arguments you use versus the Vagabond can also apply to the Sac and Curse which are a fair bit more powerful due to the way they can be setup (webs, etc); its not the Vagabond alone its nano-setups in general that people seem to have a problem with which includes a wide variety of ships.
And you cannot completely control transversal against interceptors as they are significantly faster than you and can approach at an angle without difficulty. Unlike a Curse or Sac, you cant neut/web, although you do have the advantage of perfect strikes on untrackable interceptors with turrets.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.12 17:05:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/12/2007 12:38:29
If price is not the issue and has nothing to do with balance as some say, then why would anyone in their right mind moan about a Vagabond?
After all, you *do* have a domi web and heat, right? With ISK being a non-issue, Vagabonds really really suck.
Standard Vagabond fits die. Ultra-expensive Vagabond fits die more rarely. This is hardly suprising. You can argue that they die because of this or because of that, but a lot of them are dying if we're to believe the report on ships produced / etc.
However, if price and balance have nothing to do with each other and shouldn't be mentioned in balance discussions, then Vagabonds are already completely obsolete with Domination webs + heat already and are in dire need of a buff.
Right on the money. Since price isn't an issue, your overheated skirmish warfare'd Domination Web goes out to just shy of 26km. Now since all Vagabond pilots thusly have to engage at 28km+ to give them room, they essentially have the DPS of a Kestrel thanks to falloff.
Or is this a underhanded attack on the powerhouse that is the Kestrel? It all makes sense now!
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.12 20:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: shinsushi
Oh, and run of the mil, T2 fitted w/ T1 rigs vaga does over 5 km/sec.
A run of the mil, T2 fitted /w T1 rigs Crow does 9km/s and can keep a point and web now due to the interceptor changes while MWD'ing. It has 4km/s over the Vagabond and significantly more if they both overheat, VERY easy to approach it on an angle with such a speed advantage.
They're also far cheaper and less skill intensive than Vagabonds and significantly easier to fly. A Crow or long ranged interceptor will never die and be capable of harassment just like the Vagabond and will always be able to run the latter down should it come to such situations and both pilots are 'perfect'.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.12 21:28:00 -
[5]
A T2 Vagabond does only go around 4km/s if you fit it balancing DPS, speed and agility instead of straight out speed which can easily get you killed due to a lack of agility. In 1v1s they may trail behind the faster ship but will have superior DPS/tank and mobility in terms of warp time.
A Vagabond doing 300+ DPS going 3km/s is only going to be doing such DPS to targets it will never break in the first place (proper fit BSes), the tracking penalty and falloff in actual PvP makes orbiting with MWD on a terrible idea, the fact that you suggest this shows inexperience.
Furthurmore, a Sac or Curse can maintain 4-7km/s (depending on snakes), with the Curses damage being very similar to the Vagas (and then factor in the power of neuts), while a Sac does significantly more with absolutely no tracking issues.
If the Vagabond is overpowered, then the nano-Sac is out of this world and should receive similar criticisms.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.13 02:52:00 -
[6]
Another neat idea to remember is that this game is not balanced for 1v1 scenarios. Motherships, people using scan alts, faction tanked ships, many ewar boats, etc all cannot be killed unless there are 1) more than one opposing pilot involved who 2) specifically fit to take them down. It is very hard to catch a Vagabond, but its just as difficult to have any capacitor remaining versus a Curse, or to be able to lock at all against a Rook, or to be able to lock something within a year against an Arazu, or to engage a gank Megathron in its optimal, or to etc etc.
To be so blatantly opposed to one particular aspect in EVE (one which you have no experience flying either by self admittance) is naive. The ISK investment for a proper Snake fit is very prohibitive and the moment one runs into a faction web (which are relatively inexpensive) it can pop. If you are comparing scenarios then why should not the defender be allowed to invest the same amount of ISK? A Vagabond of course will not have difficulty killing an unprepared target, but this is true of all ships.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.12.13 05:50:00 -
[7]
Originally by: shinsushi
In all your other examples, there is a viable counter ready and waiting. Facing a rook? Fit ECCM. Facing a Arazu? Fit Sensor boosters.. Facing a Curse? Fit a cap booster. They all work. Facing a nano-fit? uhhh.... Blob??
Facing a Vaga? Fit for speed or overload webs or do both (like the Sac)... how is this not a counter like the others? Sure it may not be a definitive and sure counter, but neither are the ones listed for other ships since they can fail. Also, unlike all the other counters required to beat the others, practically every single ship that can fit a MWD and web does so.
And the idea that cost is irrelevant is preposterous. The entire game is based on risk versus reward and how much ISK is invested into a ship definitely impacts what it can do. It does not buy you invulnerability but a huge advantage no matter how you look at it. Also, pretty much every non-minmatar nano ship uses drones or missiles, please tell us what turret-based nanoship you have used. Oh, and all the possible alternatives to you would not have a significant DPS decrease from falloff since rails/lasers have significant optimal ranges.
You've never flown a Vagabond nor an AC nano-ship (due to not having T2 guns and Barrage). Eve Fitting Tool does not provide an accurate representation of PvP situations.
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